The Dutch on Greece
There’s a lot of rather ugly propaganda about Greece going around at the moment. The Greeks hardly work at all before taking early retirement, and are now lazing on their beaches waiting for a European handout to solve their problems; the best option for the Netherlands would be if Greece left the euro, or failing that we certainly need to make sure we get our loans back as soon as possible and it’s only natural to punish them a bit for the trouble they’ve caused while we’re at it. They can’t expect Henk and Ingrid’s taxes to pay for some indolent Greek’s ouzo, can they?
Thankfully some less parochial voices can also be heard, and some even prefer the facts to the stereotypes. The NRC had an opinion column1 a couple of weeks ago in which you can read the following statistics:
- The average retirement age in Greece is almost 65.
- A Greek schoolteacher earns on average €800 per month.
- Greeks work the most hours per week (on average 40.6) of any EU country.
- Unemployment is at 16%, projected to hit 22% by next year.
The column is very clearly partisan and I don’t know enough to say whether the economic analysis is reasonable or not. But it’s great to see some simple facts set against the stereotypes that have been getting far too much attention lately.2
Notes:
- Apparently they don’t put that sort of content online themselves, which is a shame. [↪]
- It’s interesting to think about why a stereotype that is demonstrably incorrect, such as the lazy Greek taking early retirement, can still be so persistent in public discourse. A major factor, I think, is that “public discourse” is only quite indirectly involved in high-level political decision-making (“Should we include harsh penalty clauses and a quick repayment schedule in this loan, or not?”). The economic factors that really go into such a decision are far too complex to be reduced to such simplistic ideas. What happens is that the simplistic ideas get marshalled to defend the decision once it is taken, or alternatively to disparage it, and thus they get their power through their effect on political careers rather than through their inherent argumentative worth. Being rationalisations, rather than reasons, they are not subjected to the careful evaluation they would get if they were genuinely being used to make decisions, rather than simply to justify them. Or at least, that’s my theory; it’s also possible that “public discourse” is entirely about catchy soundbites and the truth is simply irrelevant, but I’d rather hope that’s not yet entirely the case. [↪]
Comments
Well that's awkward... I have to admit, I had a brief look at Eurostat last night and didn't manage to find an average retirement age.
Ok, lesson learned: just statistics isn't much better than just stereotypes, sourced statistics are what we need. Sigh.
Check the Dmeographics and Economy rows out on this template, fairly interesting maps with stats. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Europe_topics
You are right. And here is the link to economic data. (It is actually quite easy to find the data if you are interested in finding out the true facts.)
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-80-07-135/EN/KS-80-07-135-EN.PDF
You need to look at the tables on page 140. (Pdf page 140; page 138 by page numbers.)
Official and effective age of retirement in 2005 for women:
In Greece (EL): 60 is the official, and a bit over 58 the effective.
In the Netherlands (NL): 65 is the official, and a bit over 59 the effective.
Official and effective age of retirement in 2005 for men:
In Greece (EL): 65 is the official, and almost 62 the effective.
In the Netherlands (NL): 65 is the official, and a bit over 60 the effective.
You can draw your conclusions. And the Dutch and German people too.
The above data by the way is a bit outdated, and the actual retirement age numbers have gone up lately in Greece...
Oh, and for the working hours per week, again from Eurostat as cited on another website, take a look at this: http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/areas/qualityoflife/eurlife/index.php?template=3&radioindic=175&idDomain=2
Hours of work per week in 2006:
Greece (EL): 42.7 Netherlands (NL): 30.9
But now that I am thinking about it, I must have missed your point when you were talking about a ''link to the economic data'' :-) Is that right?
Samson will assure you that I rarely have a point. These links are a nerds dream, thank you.
Haha OK! :-)
In any case, my other interpretation of what you might have meant was that apart from having statistical data you have to also have links of the data to other economical data in order for them to make sense.
I do think that the Dutch article in question (have you read it?) offers a very good analysis of the whole situation in a depth of a few decades, and gives a rather clear idea of how Greece ended up where it is. So I really believe it is a good one. And certainly a much better one than the stereotypical approaches that I have been hearing all the time here in the Netherlands.
This page claims the average retirement age is 53. http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/business_money/greek+rescue+deal+agreed+but+ampaposbig+sacrificesampapos+ahead/3634287.html I don't believe it. I don't believe 65 either. in fact unless their is a link to the economic data you would be foolish to believe "simple facts ".
Greece's problem is fairly simple - to much spending not enough income. The governments income is hampered by large scale tax avoidance, and an economy with deep structural problems. On the other hand incompetent governance has seen spending rise to disastrous levels.
The propaganda you see comes from the fact the the Greek government is requesting large amounts of aid from EU nations that haven't been spends thrifts and where things like retirement ages (official) are much higher then Greece.
Since the vast majority of people are ignorant, this information is filtered by political parties opposing these bailouts.
Meanwhile in Greece we see demonstrations against cutbacks and austerity plans which plays into the hands of western leaders who oppose assisting the Greeks. After all if the Greeks don't reign in spending, then what will happen? Other nations and bondholders won't lend to a country that can't control in it debt. Its debt is in Euro so and it can't simply devalue its currency. Its a bad situation.
Any way back to your point, this chart witch is unfortunately has no link is fairly interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement#Retirement_in_specific_countries